Interviews (by Mashelkar)

Interview by Pune Metro


Meeting Dr Raghunath Mashelkar would be a dream come true for any true blooded city reporter. Meeting him for an interview that has nothing to do with his achievements as an eminent scientist and achiever but as an conceptualiser and an editor, whose latest book on Gandhi has made him part of an Indian’s everyday conversation is a priceless opportunity that came to me on a platter.

The venue and the time were fixed.

All I had to do was show up. And read the book in concern, of course. Which I did.


Timeless Inspirator – Reliving Gandhi
 – can leave us, the third generation Indian of an Independent India – dumbfounded. After reading about 10 chapters it also struck me that this book can also inspire us; this third generation, cynical Indian who has grown up bombarded by varying views on the Father of our Nation, his eccentricity, his sexual preferences, his idealism, his weakness and so on – leading us to decry the essence of his principles and teachings in our lives altogether.

Reaching out to this sceptic, this Indian, me, is this compilation of the thoughts and beliefs of the existence, prevalence and relevance of Gandhi’s teachings through 45 icons of an emerging superpower; a compilation that proves to us that though we may disparage the relevance of Gandhi today, the 45 icons of our nation believe that his teachings hold merit today more than ever before.

This book brought me a sense of connect with the MAN, not the icon, the persona or the legend, making me move on from merely referring to Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi as Bapu and Father of the Nation to the fourth generation Indian of an independent soon-to-be-superpower India growing in my own home, to someone whose thoughts and ideals are worth holding on to even today.

Pune Metro (PM) caught up with Dr Mashelkar (Dr M) at his office on a sunny afternoon where he spoke about what Gandhi meant to him, how the book originated in his mind and where he sees the book heading.

PM: “First of all, our heartiest congratulations on the launch of this unique work of art. It is an amazing compilation and a superb product.”

Dr Mashelkar: “Yes. It’s a world class product in terms of quality. The design of the cover has the names of the icons – it’s their book. And the two wheels of a Charkha were replaced by a symbol of infinity to exemplify the timelessness of the ideas captured in the book.”

PM: “How did the idea of the book originate?”

Dr Mashelkar: “Well, I was honoured by the Australian Academy of Technological Sciences & Engineering in 2008, when I gave a speech entitled `Indian Innovation: From Gandhi & Gandhian Engneering’. I had then said that India’s greatest gift to the world in the 21st century would be Gandhiji’s teachings.

I spoke about Gandhian Engineering (More from less for more) anchored on the two important tenets – affordability and sustainability. Later I wondered how an architect or a scientist or a corporate leader today would view Gandhi’s philosophy. I wanted to include a kaleidoscope of experiences that spoke of Gandhiji’s philosophy and its relevance today. Thus the idea was born.

Amazing thing about this project is that idea was conceived in March 2010 and the book came out in October. So concept to realisation took just 6 months.”

PM: “What prompted you to choose these 45 icons that have been featured in the book?”

Dr Mashelkar: “The idea was to contact the iconic achievers of the country, all of them I hold in high regard. From people like Narayana Murthy, scientists like R K Pachauri, social workers, people who have done a lot for society, Abhay Bang, Dr Mohan Dharia, people like Kiran Bedi, who transformed Tihar jail, sportsmen like Sachin Tendulkar, Sunil Gavaskar… a kaleidoscope. Amazingly, practically all 50 of them said we can’t say No to you. As you can see from the list they are the busiest of the lot. 45 could submit their manuscripts in time.”

PM: “The book is outstanding. What according to you was the strength that ensured this book was out in 6 months flat?”

Dr Mashelkar: “I must admit here that I had a terrific editorial team – Jayshree Shahade, Dr Triveni Goswami Mathur, Sushil Borde. I would say the contribution of people like Abhijeet (Pawar) was fantastic because when we approached him for publication of this book it took him 10 seconds to say yes. Ashutosh and his team in Sakal publications worked so hard. And finally, for the launch we decided that the last of the Gandhian that we have, Mohan Dharia, he is 87, should release this book and where else but Aga Khan Palace to release this book and what other day but 2nd October to release it. The day, time was right and the whole experience at the release function was so uplifting and there you are!”

PM: “Who is your personal favourite amongst the 45 authors who’ve contributed to the book?”

Dr Mashelkar: (Laughs) “They’re all my favourites. I cannot really single any one out. All of them have also been friends by the way. People like Sam Pitroda, Sunil Gavaskar, Kiran Bedi I’ve known for a long time. (Narayana)Murthy and I have been very close. Rahul (Bajaj) is a personal friend, R K Pachauri, Pachy as we call him is also a friend. So practically everyone out of the 45 has been very well known to me.

But if you ask me what is the reader’s reaction, even some of my best friends, who are scientists said that when we got the book in hand we read Sachin (Tendulkar) further adding we will read the remaining later (laughs). That tells you about the unabashed admiration that every Indian has for Sachin.

I think all of them are absolute gems. All of them are people I respect enormously. All of them are also people with enormous integrity.”

PM: “What I found incredible as a reader is that some of them such as Sam Pitroda or Pachauri who we know so little about as ‘people’ there’s a lot of personal insight that has gone into their writing.”

Dr Mashelkar: Yes, you are right. I would like to quote from what Vijay (Bhatkar) told me (he sends an email to Gandhiji). When I first read his piece there were tears rolling down my eyes. Vijay said “I didn’t write it. It was like somebody else was writing it for me, like he told me to write it.”

And most authors have thanked me for giving them a chance to write because they said we did a huge introspection.

Actually if you want to know more about these individuals, you will get to know about them by reading this book and what they have written. It’s a kind of a mirror. Look at Rahul Bajaj – he is so transparent. He has tried to look at himself (in his write up). He has done enormous introspection – how he has lived up to the values of his father, etc…

Some of them told me that because of this challenge they bought books and read Gandhi again.

Many of them did it under conditions that were so hard . For example, Anil Kakodkar was down with Malaria and Pneumonia at the same time. He came out of the hospital and wrote his piece.

Perhaps the busiest of them all, Narayana Murthy was the first to submit.”

PM: “What are your expectations from the book?”

Dr Mashelkar: “I have great expectations from this book. I want it to be read by the younger generation. We’re trying to get the book to reach out to them.

What we see in the book is India’s iconic achievers giving a contemporary view and reflecting on the relevance of Gandhi in the modern scenario.

I don’t think this has ever been done. You will have never seen a Narayana Murthy, Mallika Sarabhai or Amjad Ali Khan talking of Gandhi.

When I presented the book to President Pratibha Patil she said ‘I’m so glad you’ve done this because the relevance of Gandhi in this century is even more than the century gone by’. And that is true, as you can see, whether it be global economic meltdown, climate change, increasing terror…. What Gandhiji had said was right – There is enough for everyone’s need not for everyone’s greed and that is exemplified in the economic meltdown we saw.

Whether it’s cricket, dance, music, finance or anything else, Gandhi’s values have an impact even today. Everywhere you see, Gandhiji’s principles are becoming more and more important.

I, therefore believe the messages from the book have to be integrated in the curriculum for our students.
Dr Ramasamy, who is also a contributor to the book, asked us if we could bring the cost of the book down so that he could distribute it to thousands of aspiring young scientists.

PM: “So will the cost come down?”

Dr Mashelkar: “Yes definitely. We are working on a low cost version. When we advocate ‘More from less for more’, this book should also follow that. If the book has to reach millions of students, then less has to be very less.

Idea is to get it translated in Hindi and Marathi to start with and then other languages. Idea is to see that the book reaches out worldwide.

China will be an economic super power but India will be a great soft power, thanks largely to Gandhiji’s teachings. Look at what Rama Bijapurkar has done – Global Swadeshi is an amazing concept. What I want to make sure is that it does not remain in this book. The thought leadership of India is here in its full glory and it must reach out to everyone.

I want this book to reach all the parliamentarians, the opinion makers, the movers and shakers.”

PM: “I am sure you’ve received a lot of praise from people for the book. What is the best accolade you have received so far?”

Dr Mashelkar: (Smiles) “Many of the people who have read the book said that this Diwali they won’t gift mithai but this book.”

PM: “One last question Dr Mashelkar. Who wrote the introductions to the icons? There is a deep insight into their personal lives that a normal person would not have!”

Dr Mashelkar: “All 45 introductions were written by me! I didn’t want a normal CV in the introduction. I didn’t make references to their achievements alone, since I know them personally, I tried to bring the real person out.

PM: “Thank you so much for sparing your valuable time and talking to us Dr Mashelkar.”
Dr Mashelkar: “Thank you! When it comes to this book, I can talk for 24 hours.”

**********************************************************************************
Excerpt:

“Though Gandhiji is no more, his philosophy of peace, reverence to all and non-violence has become far more relevant in the existing world, filled as it is with hatred, animosity and misunderstanding. There are small wars among nations. It is neither such wars nor nuclear or hydrogen bombs that can save the world. Only the philosophy of Gandhiji can. Even his message to live with nature is equally relevant against the threat of Global Warming. To adopt the way of simple living and high thinking of Gandhiji and his philosophy ‘Gandhian Engineering’ have become far more relevant than ever before. In this context, there is no substitute to the ‘Timeless Inspirator’ in order to save humanity and Mother Earth.”

Concluding paragraph of essay by Dr Mohan Dharia, Padmavibhushan recipient, veteran freedom fighter, founder of Vanarai, fondly known as the Green Man of India.

Polymer Communique Answers to Questions (Manish Chawla)


Questions Related to Polymer Industry

1. What according to you are the key drivers of growth for the Indian polymer industry?

In India, we are witnessing a rapid growth in diverse key sectors, such as, automotive, construction, electronics, healthcare, textiles, and Fast Moving Consumer Goods (FMCG). All this will contribute to the growth in consumption of polymers. Alongside, polymers are being increasingly used in the rapidly expanding needs in the areas of energy, water, agriculture, health, housing, transportation and communication. Here high level polymer science and its innovative application will continue to be significantly important in India. There will be a great resurgence of advanced polymer materials. The per-capita consumption of plastics in India is way below that of any developed countries. However, with rapidly changing socio-economic conditions, the per-capita consumption of plastics will increase significantly. A major national program, viz. “Make in India” designed to transform India into a global manufacturing hub. It will surely be another driver for the next wave of growth in the Indian polymer industry.

2. What are your thoughts on the patent laws in India? What is the way forward for research in the Indian polymers industry.

Indian patent system has been modified from time to time to meet the Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights (TRIPS) guidelines. Be it the inventor or the society, I feel Indian IP laws provide a balanced proposition for all its stakeholders. Polymer science research in India has already attained global excellence.

Let me just take the example of NCL. When I was the Director in NCL more than two decades ago, our US patents on solid-state polycondensation of polycarbonate were licensed to General Electric, who had a 40% market share in the polycarbonate market then. NCL polymer scientists had then demonstrated that they can think ahead of some of the multinational giants. These were the first instances of reverse transfer of technology from India.

NCL has moved on. Today, my colleagues at NCL are actively researching on biodegradable polymers from renewable resources, which will pave roadmap for our sustainable future. There is also an effort in developing biocompatible and bio-degradable polymeric based materials which will act as scaffolds for tissue engineering to repair, regenerate, or create tissues and organs by mimicking of natural extracellular matrixes.

Like NCL, there are many centres of excellence that have sprung up across the nation, both in public institution as well as private sector. At Reliance, for instance, some truly breakthrough innovations have taken place.

There are several areas in which polymer research will have to move forward. These include high performance composites, polymeric nanomaterials, specialty polymers for electronics, condensing polymers, stimuli responsive polymers, barrier polymers, supramolecular and self-assembling polymers, biodegradable polymers, polymers that can withstand high temperatures for prolonged periods of time (e.g. in fuel cells) and so on. Besides this, we will have to tailor our polymers for the changing scenario in manufacturing, packaging, separation processes, etc.

Take manufacturing as an example. 3D printing or additive manufacturing is picking up everywhere, be it fashion industry, be it medical and healthcare industry or be it education or retail. Now it is time to explore new materials that can be used in these 3D printers. Polymers will be the largest consumed materials for 3D printing.
3. As regards a global positioning of the Indian polymers industry, what should be the focus areas of the Indian corporate?

As I have mentioned earlier, India’s exponential growth in different sectors such as Auto, Agriculture, Medicals, Packaging, Space, Electrical & Electronics etc. has provided impetus for the development of next generation high performance polymeric materials with different functionalities. Furthermore, alternative feedstocks, such as, renewable and use of biotechnology are creating opportunities for newer polymeric materials. Indian corporates need to adopt multidisciplinary approach involving chemical and biological sciences in combination with engineering & advanced modeling, and effective public private partnerships for driving frontiers of innovation to create new value added products to speed up the development cycle from Mind to Market.

4. Is innovation unaffordable? Your thoughts please.

No, not really. The Mars mission, which sent Mangalyan in the space, just cost us US $ 74 million – not a billion dollars! I and late C.K. Prahalad wrote a paper titled ‘Innovation’s Holy Grail’ in Harvard Business Review (HBR) in the July-August 2010 issue. There we discussed as to how the combination of scarcity and aspiration had helped India develop its own brand of innovation – getting more from less for more people. This was called the MLM paradigm, i.e. ‘More from Less for More’. In this paper, we had first analysed the contextual factors that had undoubtedly facilitated the growth of India’s ability to innovate with minimal investment.

The Indian economy didn’t start growing until the 1990s, so local companies were small. Indian entrepreneurs, therefore, developed a penchant for undertaking small projects with huge capital efficiency, a good habit developed in bad times, which they have maintained in good times too!

The most important driver happened to be India’s innovation mind-set. Some Indian leaders had the audacity to question the conventional wisdom. The mix of miniscule research budgets, small size, low prices, but big ambitions had created the need to think and manage differently. Indeed it is fair to say that the combination of extreme scarcity and extreme aspiration is a basis of Indian innovation.

5. What according to you is the most exciting aspect of the current generation (innovators and) entrepreneurs?

I would ask a few questions to explain the most exciting aspects of the current generation innovators and entrepreneurs;

• Can we make a high quality Hepatitis-B vaccine priced at US$20 per dose available at a price that is 40 times less, not just 40%?
• Can we make a high quality artificial foot priced at US$10,000 available at a price that is 300 times less, not just 30%?
• Can we make a high quality cataract eye surgery available, not at US$3,000, but a price that is 100 times less, not just 100%?
• Can we make an ECG machine available, not at US$10,000 but a price that is 20 times lower, not just 20%?

Incredible as it may sound; all such impossible looking feats have been achieved by Indian innovators and entrepreneurs. And this has captured the imagination of the world to an extent that a new term `Indovation’ is beginning to do rounds now! What at first sight looks impossible, namely `affordable excellence’. We normally assume that what is affordable cannot be excellent. And what is excellent cannot be affordable. But Indian innovators and entrepreneurs have demonstrated a special talent to make this impossible, possible.

Let me begin my explanation of the concept of affordable excellence with a personal experience. In my mother’s name, I have created an Anjani Mashelkar Inclusive Innovation Award. This is the fourth year of the award. It is given for designing and developing a technological solution that leads to inclusion – meaning that millions of resource-poor people can benefit from it. But there are two conditions. First, it must belong to the category of affordable excellence. Second, it must be not just the “best” practice, but the “next” practice.

One of these awards was given to a 28-year-old innovator, Myshkin Ingawale. He found that women in villages were dying of anaemia because their low haemoglobin levels were not detected in time. He found out why: many of them were reluctant to give their blood. So he decided to create a non-invasive diagnostic tool, something that has never been achieved before. He used photoplethysmography, spectrophotometry and an advanced software for photon scattering to create ToucHb. This was technological `excellence’ achieved by using cutting edge technology, and not jugaad. Furthermore, he reduced the cost per test from Rs. 100 to Rs. 10. This was `affordable’. So he achieved `affordable excellence’.

ToucHb was a technological innovation. But there are many non-technological innovations. For example, India’s Aravind Eyecare Hospital performs ultra-low cost cataract surgeries with quality that even surpasses the international benchmarks. This is achieved by doing work-flow innovations, with more efficient and innovative use of scarce (and highly-paid) surgeons: rather than having a surgeon perform the entire surgery, each medical personnel performs a specific task during the operation. Aravind Eye care model has spread in 17 Countries now! Similar workflow innovations have been used to perform low-cost open-heart surgeries (at a cost of US$3,000) at the Narayana Hrudayalaya Hospital in Bangalore with success rates that match their western counterparts. You will soon see the Narayana Hrudayalaya innovation on affordable excellence in a 2000 bed hospital in Cayman Islands near Florida!

I expect India to lead the world in innovation based on affordable excellence.
6. You have been the chair of India’s National Innovation Foundation for over a decade. Please tell us about it.

My friend Prof. Anil Gupta from IIM (Ahmedabad) is the father of grassroots innovation movement in India.

The National Innovation Foundation-India (NIF) started functioning in March 2000 as India’s national initiative to strengthen the grassroots technological innovations and outstanding traditional knowledge. It is based on a fundamental belief that India does not have 1.25 billion mouths, but it has 1.25 million minds! Its mission is to help India become a creative and knowledge based society by expanding policy and institutional space for grassroots technological innovators.

NIF has been able to build up a database of more than 2,10,000 technological ideas, innovations and traditional knowledge practices (not all unique, not all distinct) from over 575 districts of the country. NIF has till date recognised more than 775 grassroots innovators and school students at the national level in its various award functions. It has also set up a Fabrication Laboratory (Fab Lab) with the help of MIT, Boston, for product development apart from strengthening in-house research and development facilities for the initial validation of herbal technologies. Pro bono arrangement with patent firms has helped NIF to file over 725 patents (including eight filed in USA and twenty seven PCT applications) on behalf of the innovators and outstanding traditional knowledge holders of which thirty seven patents have been granted in India and five in the USA. It has also filed applications for twenty nine farmers’ developed plant varieties at the PPV&FR Authority. Micro Venture Innovation Fund (MVIF) at NIF with the support of SIDBI has provided risk capital of over Rs 384 lakh to 193 projects, which are at different stages of incubation. NIF has received over six hundred product inquiries from around fifty five countries for various technologies, and has succeeded in commercialising products across countries in six continents apart from being successful in materialising eighty nine cases of technology licensing.

To me, the major activities of NIF comprise scouting and documentation (SD), value addition research & development, intellectual property management, business development and micro venture innovation fund and dissemination and social diffusion.

7. What is the agenda on the Global Research Alliance?

I have been the President of Global Research Alliance (GRA) since 2007.

The GRA is an international network of nine applied research organisations that works for promoting application of science and technology to solve large scale issues facing developing countries. The alliance was formed in 2000 in Pretoria, South Africa. Today, the GRA has access to the knowledgebase of 60,000 scientists across its membership in Asia Pacific, Europe and USA.

Our vision is for a world where the application of innovative science that serves the society, technology that transforms innovation that impacts. We do this through collaboration and co-creation, delivers access equality, improves lives, and solves global development challenges.

The GRA uses the best science and technology to solve some of the biggest problems in the developing world. These global issues span borders, cultures and religions and require a cross-boundary response. We address these problems by:

– mobilising the creative energy of our globally and culturally diverse researchers to address global development challenges through innovation
– sharing the breadth and depth of our science and technology resources and uniting with local partners, communities, industry and collaborators
– generating and implementing appropriate, affordable and sustainable solutions with positive and lasting impact

The GRA implements these solutions through partnership-based projects. The GRA also delivers technology workshops in developing countries and advises governments of developing countries on their national innovation systems.

8. We know Mashelkar as a polymer scientist, as a researcher, as a science leader, and indeed as a thought leader. Could you tell us at the end as to who had the biggest influence on your life? Who were your mentors? Who were your Gurus?

Well, I have talked about this often in the past, written about it in my book ‘Reinventing India’ (reinventingindia.com), it is available on my website (www.mashelkar.com), it gets reflected in my twitter (@rameshmashelkar), it gets reflected in my speeches. But for the readers of Polymers Communique, let me go through it again.

My greatest guru was my mother. Although uneducated, she understood the value of education. Despite our hardship, she kept on pushing me to do higher and higher level of studies. Shortly before she passed away, I had received my 25th Honorary Doctorate. He said, now I am satisfied. Now I can go.

My second great guru was Principal Bhave in Union High School. He taught us Physics. Because it was a poor school, I remember, it had to innovate to convey to the young students the message of Science.

I still remember one of the interesting experiences when, on a Friday afternoon, Principal Bhave took us out into the sun to demonstrate to us as to how to find the focal length of a convex lens. He had a piece of paper here, a convex lens here and he moved it up and down and there was a point when there was a sharp focus and a bright spot on the paper. He showed the distance between paper and the lens and said that this distance was the focal length. But then the paper started burning. For some reason, he then turned to me, and said, “Mashelkar, if you focus your energies like this, you can burn anything in the world.

From this I got two lessons- first the philosophy of my life that if we focus, we can achieve anything. And the second about the power of science. It was so powerful. I thought to myself why don’t I become a scientist. It left an indelible mark in my mind.

By the way, if you think carefully about that story, it also tells you about the new model for the society and for the nation. What is the experiment? You have the lens. And what does the lens do? It takes the parallel rays of the sun and then lets them converge. And what is the property of parallel lines? Parallel lines never meet. Parallel rays never meet but the lens actually makes them meet. I call it “convex lens” leadership by the way – leadership that brings people together.

The third teacher who made a huge difference for me was Professor M.M. Sharma. He had returned from Cambridge at the young age of 28. He took up the position of a Professor in University Department of Chemical Technology. He was incredible. I was among the top rankers in Chemical Engineering. I had a number of offers of scholarships from the United States of America and Canada for doing research for my doctorate degree. I had always done things which were different, by the way. I thought where could I get a better Guru for me and decided not to go abroad and worked in University and did my Ph.D under young Prof. Sharma, a man with enormous value systems. All his research was ‘idea based’. With barely Rs.10,000 per year as contingency grant, i.e. less than 1000 rupees per month, we did research that was published in top international journals. He has remained a teacher. I am the third Engineer to have got the Fellowship of Royal Society in the 20th century. Prof. Sharma was the first by the way. Ours is a rather unique combination of Guru and Shishya both getting Fellowships of Royal Society!

And the fourth Guru was Bharat Ratna Professor CNR Rao, who came in my life a little late. Prof. Rao is the most celebrated scientist in the country. The interesting thing is that he is past the age of 80 now and he still works 25 hours a day! Not 24 but 25. And that too day after day, week after week, month after month, and year after year. He is really my role model and an icon. Except the Nobel Prize, he has received all the major awards. I am sure he will get that too, and sooner rather than later.

What he did for me was very interesting and there is a lesson for you to take home. Anytime I got any honour and I went to him expecting him to appreciate and applaud. You know the only word he would use would be- Not Bad! I became a Fellow of Royal Society FRS, It’s a big honour. In fact, I remember receiving a letter from another FRS, who said `only two greater things can happen to you in life now, One is Nobel prize and other is death. One is certain and the other is uncertain’.

When I went to Professor CNR Rao and told him that I received FRS, he said Not Bad! Then I became Foreign Associate of U.S. National Academy of Science. It was established in 1868. In 140 years or so, only seven Indians have got this honour. Sometimes you get a Nobel Prize first and that honour later, like Sir Harry Kroto, who got the Nobel Prize first and five years after that he got this honour.

I thought surely now Professor CNR Rao would be impressed. So, I went and told him look, I got this honour. He said,’ Not bad’. I was really frustrated. So I asked him directly what will make him satisfied. Then he defined for me what is called a limitless ladder of excellence. He said, “there are no limits to the ladder of excellence”. You should continue to climb on this ladder of excellence for ever and ever. ‘Your best is yet to come.’

So in the end, I would simply say that this lesson of keeping on climbing on the limitless ladder of excellence is what I would carry with me till I breathe my last.

THE FUTURE OF TECHNOLOGY AND JOBS
AN INTERVIEW WITH DR. R.A. MASHELKAR

Arun Kumar Tripathi
DOI: 10.1145/2903524

Dr. Raghunath Anant Mashelkar is a National Research Professor and is currently the President of Global Research Alliance. He previously held the positions of Director General of the Council of Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR) (1995–2006) and President of Indian National Science Academy (2005–2007).

Dr. Mashelkar’s groundbreaking research in polymer science and engineering has won him many international laurels. He is a Fellow of Royal Society (FRS), Foreign Associate of the U.S. National Academy of Science and U.S. National Academy of Engineering, Foreign Member, American Academy of Arts & Sciences, Fellow of Royal Academy of Engineering, U.K., and Foreign Fellow of Australian Technological Science and Engineering Academy.

As Director of National Chemical Laboratory (NCL) between 1989 and 1995, Mashelkar gave a new orientation to NCL’s research programmes with strong emphasis on globally competitive technologies and international patenting. This was done even before India liberalized and opened up in 1991. Dr. Mashelkar created a polymer science and engineering division from scratch in NCL that is rated as world class today.

View Full Article